Ai will represent Germany alongside Romuald Karmakar, Santu Mofokeng and Dayanita Singh at the 55th Venice Biennale<\/a> this year, and is now working on a number of different projects including, perhaps, a play and an album.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Iona Whittaker met Ai Weiwei at the capacious studio in Caochangdi \u2014 designed by himself and replete with some 30 cats \u2014 which he has called his home and workplace since 2000.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the State of the Country<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Iona Whittaker<\/strong>: After the release of \u201cNever Sorry,\u201d<\/a><\/strong> your incendiary Guardian article, a Weiwei-brand Gangnam Style and continued conflicts with the authorities in China, now seemed a pertinent time to speak to you. What is your perspective on the current state of things and on the year that\u2019s passing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ai Wei Wei<\/strong>: I think China has come to a critical stage. Of course, many people may not agree with it. But for me, as someone who has grown up in China, spent about 12 years in the US and come back and worked in many different aspects \u2014 mainly in the cultural field, writing, blogging, twitter and my art works, and I do a lot of interviews \u2014 I\u2019m very strongly connected to [people in the] judicial fields, such as lawyers, who have been victimized by the society. My father\u2019s generation as intellectuals \u2014 the whole generation, or many generations \u2014 has been damaged or ruined only because they have different ideas, attitudes or thoughts. Nobody can deny it. That\u2019s not just a few; it\u2019s counted in the millions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And today, it\u2019s not much changed in terms of the ideology. So power is very clearly maintained with governance and force. Chairman Mao said: \u201cA revolution relies on two barrels: one is the barrel of the gun, and one is the barrel of the brush\u201d [\u5e72\u9769\u547d\u9760\u7684\u662f\u67aa\u6746\u5b50\u548c\u7b14\u6746\u5b50].<\/p>\n\n\n\n There are only two types of people: there are people who don\u2019t want to know, or pretend not to know, and people who know it and pretend that it doesn\u2019t matter. As an artist, I am not so different from other people. I just know the facts sometimes, point them out during interviews or in my writing; then the result is that I get in so much trouble. Other artists or other writers \u2014 they pretend this is not happening. Or they are scared. They think that it will prevent them from selling their works, or even just maintain their very primitive struggle, you know, which is just trying to survive. And so I have gotten into a lot of trouble, one after another, as you can see. At the beginning, they didn\u2019t know what to do, and it can escalate to high drama\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: May I ask how you personally felt as this was beginning, because before you used to speak specifically about art, and then there was a shift when you began to talk more directly about politics.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Well, that\u2019s because people do not understand. Others ask me the same question: \u201cWhy, when and how it all started.\u201d I tell them it started when I was born, when my father was thrown out to Xinjiang [in the far west of China] and started not being allowed to write. My family was seen as an enemy of the people. He worked as a hard laborer, cleaning out the toilets for the whole village without one day\u2019s rest in five years, because he just simply could not handle it \u2014 if he took one day off, the next day the work would be double.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When you are young, you take it as normal. You know, it\u2019s just like the weather. Then came \u201989, when there was this slight opening. We joined, and the result was that the movement was crushed. Many people were affected. I felt I had to leave, because it had become dangerous. As an artist I don\u2019t have much power; I didn\u2019t even have a platform to play with, so to leave was my natural choice. So I escaped, and I came back in \u201993. I started to do underground books. I made almost the first Chinese contemporary art space in China, the China Art Archives and Warehouse (CAAW). We organised local shows, and we curated the show \u201cFuck Off.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n So there\u2019s no beginning or end. I was born with this clear mind, and then the internet came. I realized it gave me a chance to speak out with my personal opinions. You know, I am not a politician; I am not interested in just politics. But as an artist, to express your idea, to clearly state your mind, and let people understand what you\u2019re saying \u2014 that\u2019s very essential. So I started to use it. I made a first artwork, \u201cFairytale,\u201d [1]<\/a> related to the internet, which was very successful. I started to understand that the internet could be a very powerful tool. So I wrote like crazy every day, till in 2009 we started a lot of projects for Citizen Investigation, to search for the deaths of the students in the Sichuan earthquake. I didn\u2019t donate money \u2014 I said I think that\u2019s what the government should do. But I did ask who is missing in the earthquake; you know, who are those students, what\u2019s their birthday, and then which school, which class, what happened when the buildings collapsed, why did they collapse? So we made documentary films and interviewed hundreds of their parents, and over 5,000 students. Then I got into bigger trouble, because they said it was completely unacceptable to publish these names. But for us it\u2019s a very natural habit; it\u2019s seeing the truth, the plain truth, clearly spelt out. And if we cannot do that, why do I have to be an artist? Why do I have to stay here? That\u2019s what I feel is necessary as a condition for living \u2014 to understand what happened.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Of course, they shut off my blog. Then they harassed me when I tried to go to court as a witness for another fellow who was also doing the same type of investigation. He is still in jail \u2014 he has five years in total; he has only served three years. I started my investigation to try to help him. His lawyer asked me if I could be a witness. I said, \u201cYes, of course.\u201d I didn\u2019t hesitate; I knew there was danger. So I went. Then they came in that night, three o\u2019clock in the morning, you know, crashed into the hotel, and beat me. I am just a witness \u2014 this is part of justice. Then they beat me. So I had a documentary come out. Then all of a sudden you become a political activist, right? Because you speak out about the truth. Then a lot of people say, \u201cOh, Ai Weiwei, he just makes a lot of trouble, tried to make himself famous, tried to bring attention from the West.\u201d Come on, if it\u2019s that simple \u2014 why don\u2019t you do that, you know?\u00a0 Because it\u2019s me. Hundreds, thousands of Chinese artists try to become famous by any means necessary, so why don\u2019t people follow that step? That footprint? Is it that simple? That easy? Or are you scared? So, yes, to answer your question.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On his \u201cGangnam Style\u201d video<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: On a lighter note, what made you do your own \u201cGangnam Style\u201d video?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: \u201cGangnam Style\u201d was just a one-second decision. We didn\u2019t prepare; it was very simple. The exact same type of morning, like today, and we had not much to do, then I saw the \u201cGangnam Style\u201d video, but I didn\u2019t know it was that popular. I said, \u201cIt\u2019s funny.\u201d So a friend of mine said, \u201cOh, you can dance like that\u201d and I said, \u201cWhy not? I can.\u201d and so I said to the office, \u201cLet\u2019s dance this.\u201d They were all surprised, because people are shy. We played the iPod, and we tried to mimic the gestures, we didn\u2019t prepare, we didn\u2019t do a rehearsal, just one run, then I left. By the time I got back, they had already put it up on a Chinese site. It suddenly became so popular. Thousands of people watched it, then they shut it off, after an hour. Then we put it on YouTube. And everyone said \u201cOh<\/em>, he did this.\u201d I did this because I think that as an artist to express myself is a natural act. It\u2019s like talking or drinking water or something. I don\u2019t have to think and prepare. YouTube is there. It\u2019s the best site \u2014 you can always do whatever you like. It\u2019s free! Except Chinese cannot see it (laughs<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Were you surprised by the reaction?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: I was very surprised. I look at that. It\u2019s funny, but I never dance; I never go to discos, or\u2026I\u2019m just shy. But you can see I\u2019m not shy there. I\u2019m really crazy and mad. I think that kind of feeling encourages people. You know, even just being silly is exploring a condition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: But what\u2019s the difference between being shy at discos and putting a video out to the whole world? Online, millions of people will see it \u2014 is there something different about that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: For me, it\u2019s not \u2014 I\u2019m the whole world. All I need to do is to convince myself and make the decision. Maybe two people see it; maybe a lot of people see it. To me it doesn\u2019t matter anymore. I have to just pay attention to my own situation, and my joy, and my anger. I believe there are a lot of people who share my sentiment, my joy, and my frustrations. If I don\u2019t have that belief, I lack the confidence to do anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On \u201cArt of Change\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Moving on to \u201cArt of Change\u201d<\/strong><\/a> [a show at the Hayward Gallery in London] \u2014 yours was a very strong \u2014 and negative \u2014 response to that in an article for the Guardian<\/em> newspaper<\/strong><\/a>. What specifically provoked you to say these things \u2014 the choice of artists? The overall concept? The very idea of an exhibition of Chinese art now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Well, first, I haven\u2019t seen the show, of course; you know that. It was the Guardian <\/em>that asked me to write an article relating to this show, about Chinese art. So I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s okay; I have quite a lot to say about Chinese art.\u201d About this show, I don\u2019t know much. I know many people whose work is in it \u2014 some of them are my close friends, Sun Yuan and Peng Yu, and quite a few of them; we are very good friends. I didn\u2019t know this gallery \u2014 of course, later I heard it\u2019s a very well-established British gallery.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I have been struggling so much with reality. Basically my struggle has been focused on: \u201cWhat is freedom of expression? How does it relate to artistic conditions? And how does it relate to aesthetics, moral choice and philosophical thinking about the time and the place we are living in?\u201d I think these are the inevitable topics artists have to face \u2014 it doesn\u2019t matter who you are or what media you use. You can never really avoid it. Or if you avoid it, yours is the kind of art I would never understand. I wouldn\u2019t even care. So my basic critique \u2014 the so-called \u201ccritical\u201d aspect \u2014 it\u2019s not that critical to me. It\u2019s just one artist\u2019s opinion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [1]<\/a>\u00a0\u201cFairytale\u201d (2007) was a work created for Documenta 12, in which 1001 Chinese people from widely different backgrounds were invited to Kassel, Germany. A documentary film follows the process of their selection, applications to travel \u2013 some of which were unsuccessful \u2013 and visit to Kassel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the Art World in China<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW:<\/strong> You see so many galleries, they make so much money on Chinese art, with big collectors buying, so the price gets really high. Ask them what\u2019s their political opinion, ask them what they think of this state of mind, the censorship, the attempts to avoid reality, the time they are living in \u2014 and trying to please the Western audience (you know, just trying to please them, trying to flirt with the market). I mean, aren\u2019t they ashamed of that condition? Are they true humans, or are they just part of the machinery? Are they designed by this kind of society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: To explore this point further: did you not say that under the current conditions in China, no true art can ever come about?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: You know, what is art? You can say that everything is art. But it will not be the kind of art I would care about or dare you to look at because they avoid the very essential questions. One fellow artist like me was arrested. Do you see how many Chinese artists even just question, \u201cWhere is this guy?\u201d \u201cWhat crime did he commit?\u201d We are all friends \u2014 we play cards together, we go to exhibitions and eat together in restaurants. But as a human being, if a cat is missing, you say, \u201cWhere is this cat?\u201d when it doesn\u2019t come home. But when an artist is secretly taken away and never comes back home \u2014 and you are supposed to be a friend of his, a friend of his family \u2014 you will never even make a phone call to say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry to hear that\u201d or maybe \u201cHe\u2019s going to come back.\u201d! You think that\u2019s a normal society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n You might have heard of Anish Kapoor, you might hear of so many artists you know, or the Guggenheim and different museums, or other artists outside. They don\u2019t know me so well, but they think it\u2019s very essential to protect an artist speaking out. Because in a society where artists are not there looking for the truth or speaking out, that\u2019s the end of this humanity. It\u2019s over\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: So it really rests on this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: It\u2019s shameless if you look at the world and think it\u2019s exactly like you. The world is not like them. I\u2019m here to remind them: the world is not like them. The Chinese art world is basically just a shameless world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: And a self-censored world?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Of course! If the people have this kind of mentality, they are not only self-censored; they are trying to make the whole society comfortable, to accept this kind of brutal condition.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [\u2026]<\/p>\n\n\n\n People often say, \u201cOh, art is different\u201d \u2014 you know, like Mo Yan, the Nobel Prize winner. This morning I saw his conversation with the people at Stockholm University. He said \u201cThe best writing is to hide the meaning, and the deeper you hide it, the better your writing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the Idea of China and the Captive Mind<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: I am interested in your perspective on the international media and its approach to China as well as its influence on public opinion. Can you comment on this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: I think China is a society with very unique traditions and culture, because it\u2019s so cut off from the world in terms of history in many, many periods \u2014 not all the time (not in the Tang Dynasty or the Yuan Dynasty) \u2014 about half of the time. So people are always struggling to be China alone, or have China as the centre of the stage. [\u2026] But today, it\u2019s better than ever, because it\u2019s so easy to get onto the internet. People are so well-informed, better then ever, and communication is much denser.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: How would you define your personal politics, and what do you propose in terms of positive development in the socio-political situation in China now? How can change begin to be brought about, particularly given recent developments?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: (Chuckles, and a cat howls in the background<\/em>). First of all, my own condition is always the same. Except when I was taken in \u2014 that\u2019s where it differed.. It was outside of the judicial system. You are under the most brutal hold of another human power who can decide your fate. The only difference between me and other artists is that I don\u2019t have to become famous, I don\u2019t have to become rich, but I have to speak out. And they don\u2019t have to speak out, all those artists. They would never speak out. But they are so crazy about getting rich, or prospering from their so-called \u201cart.\u201d You know, this is crazy. I don\u2019t think they will be famous, either; I mean, who cares about people like that? Maybe a few of them will only become famous because they sell high, like Zhang Xiaogang or\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Fang Lijun?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Fang Lijun is already maybe a bit over, but\u2026Zeng Fanzhi, right? And Liu Xiaodong. You know, he was a classmate of my wife\u2019s; they have been very close since high school and university. We never had a problem. I wrote previews \u2014 I mean, for his shows \u2014 articles, and I\u2019m added in his photo books. But during my detention, none of them just asked one question, \u201cWhere is Ai Weiwei\u201d \u2014 it seemed they never knew me. Should I care about them? Of course not. You know, when I came out I asked Lu Qing [Ai Weiwei\u2019s wife], \u201cDid Liu Xiaodong or his wife or anyone ever call once?\u201d It\u2019s like this guy is dead. He may be a criminal but you\u2019re still concerned about your friends, right? There was no such phone call. One day, I had to go to the China Central Academy [of Fine Arts; CAFA, in Beijing] to attend my friend\u2019s meeting. I saw his wife, Yu Hong, there; she saw me and she didn\u2019t even nod her head \u2014 they pretended they didn\u2019t know me. Are we living in a human society or are we just living with monsters, or some crazy animals?<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: And so your relationship with them since then is\u2026?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Of course now I have no relationship with them at all. I am a very direct person. I don\u2019t need any relationships with anybody if you don\u2019t share very essential values with, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: I understand. It\u2019s very disappointing for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: No, no, no! It\u2019s not for me! It\u2019s helping me to understand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Actually, to see more clearly?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Yeah, yeah, [to see] what the Chinese art world is about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the Future<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Is there anyone or are there any figures who give you confidence?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Yes, young people \u2014 the people who are active on the internet. And there are a lot of young artists \u2014 they are not famous, but they still love art. They still think art is the way to give them space, to create or to use their imagination, or to explore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: There\u2019s a huge amount of curiosity, I feel, among young people, about art.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Yeah, there\u2019s a lot, but at the same time, the education failed them, you know. Most of them are the same \u2014 they are just hungry, thirsty, but they don\u2019t know how to really act on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Can you see this changing any time soon?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: No. If the education in China does not change, let me see \u2014 in the next 20 years, China will not change. If we don\u2019t teach a person who is three years old, then when he\u2019s 23, he\u2019s wasted.He has no way to even become a real person with courage and passion\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: And has China changed at all in the last 20 or 30 years? Indeed, how can \u201cchange\u201d be detected or defined?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW:<\/strong> I think it has changed, somehow, because very practically, it wants to survive. You know, this society was maintained \u2014 they are there still only because of tax. They understand it; we understand it; all the artists also understand it. So the conclusion is very easy \u2014 make money, be rich, maybe that can help. They made money and became the workforce of world \u2014 you know, the world needs a big labor force to maintain the Western lifestyle. We need cheap products from China which sacrifices the environment, their education, their poor welfare system, or medical care. Congratulations. We don\u2019t even have to enslave; they have their own police and armies \u2014 they can deal with us better than the British and Americans. (Sighs<\/em>). What a desirable world \u2014 that\u2019s the new world order. Then sell them the best technology and make sure they are always\u2026not creative. So under those kinds of circumstances, China has sacrificed almost everything to being rich \u2014 with corruption everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW:<\/strong> At a social level, too, obviously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Yeah, they have not established anything except fast roads, a lot of tall buildings \u2014 and because they bring tremendous profits to their relatives. The natural resources are all controlled by families. So it becomes a socialist-capitalist society. Anybody \u2014 like me, like artists \u2014 how much voice can I have, actually? I\u2019m not an expert; I\u2019m not deeply involved with politics. I just speak out about what I have seen, and it\u2019s just like a commentary. It made them so nervous, and it made me become a nationally important figure for the West \u2014 \u201cOh, this guy is such a critic.\u201d Come on! I haven\u2019t really started (laughs<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n (Someone comes in to say we are running out of time. \u201cAlmost,\u201d Ai Weiwei says<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n On the Role of Artists<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: What about the relationship between art and politics \u2014 your art, and art in general. If it is the responsibility of creative figures to be politically active \u2014 to what extent and how?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: I think, let\u2019s just talk what Anish Kapoor did. He is a much-loved artist and his work is quite abstract \u2014 about forms, aesthetics, pure aesthetics, or feelings, emotions \u2014 you know, not related to politics. But he personally cancelled a show in China, and he himself went to petition at the Chinese consulate. But why? He doesn\u2019t know me, and we are so far away \u2014 he doesn\u2019t necessarily even like my work, but I\u2019m so touched that there\u2019s a human being who has the same profession but understands the importance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And think about Elton John: he\u2019s concentrating on AIDS; he\u2019s always such a loving man \u2014 so warm. And he announced that his musical performance is dedicated to a person he doesn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You know, I\u2019m not fighting for myself; I\u2019m fighting for all the young people who want to be creative, to better their situation. My situation is OK, if I want to be an artist \u2014 as the police said, when they released me: \u201cWeiwei, we think if you work hard enough, you can make a good artist; concentrate on your art, and stay out of politics.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Of course, I wouldn\u2019t ask all the artists to do the same, but show some compassion, in some way, to tell people you have feelings. Is that too much to ask an artist? Of course, someone else like a taxi driver cannot do it, because they have to work so many hours in traffic. As an artist, you are concerned about culture, concerned about humanity, concerned about freedom of speech; use some way to show your concern. I don\u2019t think that would be too much to ask.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: What is the political and the liberating potential of experimentation in form and in experience?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s endless. As humans we are so fascinated by why we look this way or why it doesn\u2019t look that way. [\u2026] <\/strong>Why? Because all these questions will always be there, because we\u2019re all so innocent, we\u2019re all so na\u00efve. It doesn\u2019t matter how profound you are, we\u2019re all very, very innocent. So the wondering about forms, shapes, colors, volume, sound, texture\u2026 those are endless, you know? They have made us lovely creatures, because we just cannot get rid of those things (another cat howls suddenly<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: What do you think about the art media in China?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: (Laughs suddenly<\/em>). It\u2019s completely corrupt.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: And abroad?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: I don\u2019t pay much attention \u2014 I think it\u2019s also very corrupt.<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: Really?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: Yes, I heard \u2014 you know I talked about critical writing, and people said, \u201cOh Weiwei, come on, don\u2019t be na\u00efve \u2014 the West has also not so critical writing.\u201d I mean, it\u2019s not really in fashion if you see something that\u2019s not very good \u2026Haaa, okay, maybe that means we should forget about the word \u201cart\u201d; we should be activists (laughs<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n On His Upcoming Works<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: I wondered what it is you are working on now, and how has it been for your studio, recently?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: We do many things; we are doing documentaries, we are doing research, we may write a play, we may make a musical album\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n IW<\/strong>: A play?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AWW<\/strong>: We are doing things, you know. I don\u2019t think people can stop one person who wants to live a full life. I can stop being an artist, or being so-called \u201cpolitical,\u201d but I cannot stop expressing myself. That\u2019s not possible; that\u2019s a symptom of life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n![\"\"](\"https:\/\/randian-art.s3.ap-east-1.amazonaws.com\/2022\/09\/en\/Weiwei-Installation-02.jpg\")
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