{"id":1971,"date":"2016-06-06T14:05:00","date_gmt":"2016-06-06T14:05:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/?p=1971"},"modified":"2022-12-01T14:05:52","modified_gmt":"2022-12-01T14:05:52","slug":"hito-steyerl-interview","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/zh-hant\/hito-steyerl-interview\/","title":{"rendered":"Hito Steyerl: interview"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

by Zian Chen \u9648\u73ba\u5b89
translated by Chen Yufeng\u00a0\u9648\u715c\u5cf0<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ran Dian would like to thank Mathieu Borysevicz and BANK<\/a>, the studio of MABSOCIETY<\/a> Shanghai, for generously facilitating this interview.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This piece is included in Ran Dian\u2019s print magazine, issue 2 (Winter 2015\u20132016)<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl (b. 1966, Munich) is coruscating and forensically meticulous in her critique of how images circulate, are transacted, and are stored in free ports. She is a writer, teacher, filmmaker, and installation artist. But most of all, Hito Steyerl is a moral philosopher of the politics of images. Her installation for the German Pavilion in Venice was not entertainment: it was a call to arms.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl:<\/strong> I\u2019m actually writing about this Marx quote: the first time in history was a tragedy; the second time is a farce. I\u2019m saying, \u201cWe have to get rid of it.\u201d If we keep on quoting, it\u2019s worse than the farce, actually. [Laughing] We have to just throw it out the window because it\u2019s not helping right now. But the time of gaming is very important in that respect, because in a video game we have a similar rule, right?  You die, you respawn, you die again, but\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen:<\/strong>\u00a0You never really die.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u201cThe BANK Show, Hito Steyerl\u201d \uff0c\u5c55\u89c8\u73b0\u573a\u56fe\uff0cBANK\uff0c\u4e0a\u6d77\uff0c2015.7.18 \u2013 2015.8.30\uff08\u6444\u5f71\uff1a\u738b\u95fb\u9f99\uff0c\u56fe\u7247\u63d0\u4f9b\uff1aBANK\uff0c\u4e0a\u6d77\uff09Hito Steyerl, \u201cThe BANK Show, Hito Steyerl\u201d, installation view at BANK, Shanghai. Photo: Alex Wang. Courtesy of BANK, Shanghai.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl:<\/strong> You don\u2019t die, but on the other hand you do something in the meantime: you improve your skills. So something is actually happening and you would manage eventually, if you were to go to enough forums to get to another level, right? So it\u2019s possible\u2014history doesn\u2019t have to repeat; the eternal return doesn\u2019t have to happen. It can unlock the achievements. [Laughing] It\u2019s just a matter of practice. So in that sense, I think gaming temporalities are very hopeful\u2014much more hopeful than Marx.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> The Da Vinci Code! [Laughing] Are we talking about being within or without the critical system, in the sense that we are automatically part of the system? For instance in the art world, you\u2019re exhibiting in commercial galleries and so there\u2019s always a compromise one has to negotiate or reconcile oneself to. What\u2019s your thinking on this? Because a lot of your work is really criticizing this environment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>Oh! You caught me in a contradiction! CONGRATULATIONS, YOU GET 20 POINTS!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen:\u00a0<\/strong>What about the poor image?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c\u300a\u592a\u9633\u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5c55\u89c8\u73b0\u573a\uff0c2015. Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, installation view, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>You know, the \u201cpoor\u201d image as I described it existed from 2007 until maybe around 2009, then the bandwidth was much amplified. So most images you see on your phone now are very highly resolved\u2014 the poor image doesn\u2019t exist in this form anymore. Even on YouTube, most material is HD now. High Definition is the new Standard Definition. So, it\u2019s relative, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen:<\/strong> The poor quality image\u2014to use that now is really a type of nostalgia, or a commodification of memory.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>You know, you cannot fix this particular shape in time and say, \u201cThis is going to last for the next 20 years.\u201d It isn\u2019t. The poor image today is very different than it was some years ago. It\u2019s also not as symptomatic  as a cultural form.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> Back in November, you already talked about the notion of, \u201cThe story tells me\u201d;  I feel it really informs the current wave of your thinking. Then, you suddenly made a reversal of it. The fictional mode is actually a real mode or something. I think you  kind of layer up the relationship between inside and outside or the one in the narrative and the one outside it. Would you talk about where this originates from, this kind  of quick storytelling?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c \u300a \u592a\u9633\u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5f55\u50cf\u5267 \u7167\uff0c2015 \/ Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, video still, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>I\u2019m never in control of the story\u2014maybe someone is; usually that\u2019s much more interesting because  then things can happen all the time. I don\u2019t see the reversal you see, either. It\u2019s kind of a good example:  I am constantly told I did this or that, and I really can\u2019t remember any of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> When you raised the issue of professionalism before, I was wondering about all the political systems there are in society. There is a system of categorization for people, and in Britain it\u2019s also a commodification of status\u2014do you think of yourself as an artist? Or is that  just completely unhelpful and irrelevant? Do we need to put that to one side and get rid of all these categorizations?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>I don\u2019t mind; I never call myself an artist. I don\u2019t feel qualified to do that\u2014I cannot draw. I do not know art history. I\u2019m confident in filmmaking, I know film history, I can operate most of the hardware\u2014but artist?  On the other hand, it is true that the art field has given me a forum to present my work which I wouldn\u2019t have had anywhere otherwise. I\u2019m not resisting it\u2014it will be over soon anyway. I just don\u2019t know what  it means to be called an artist. An \u201celephant\u201d would mean just the same. I am not opposed to elephants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong>\u00a0But I think that\u2019s a very important thing in this massive, hyper\u00adcapitalist system we\u2019ve been discussing with regard to art and how art\u00a0 has become quite absurd and grotesque. It is easy to criticize, to laugh at how expensive a Jeff Koons work is\u2014but all of these things\u00a0 leak into our society. I\u2019m thinking of the philosophical structures in society, and they change you. They change everyone. How\u00a0 can we use these critical films and installations you\u2019re creating\u00a0 to effect change?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u201cThe BANK Show, Hito Steyerl\u201d \uff0c\u5c55\u89c8\u73b0\u573a\u56fe\uff0cBANK\uff0c\u4e0a\u6d77\uff0c2015.7.18 \u2013 2015.8.30\uff08\u6444\u5f71\uff1a\u738b\u95fb\u9f99\uff0c\u56fe\u7247\u63d0\u4f9b\uff1aBANK\uff0c\u4e0a\u6d77\uff09Hito Steyerl, \u201cThe BANK Show, Hito Steyerl\u201d, installation view at BANK, Shanghai. Photo: Alex Wang. Courtesy of BANK, Shanghai.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>That\u2019s up to you\u2014I\u2019m doing a lot of work already making the work; [Laughs] I can\u2019t possibly assist with that. I never promised anyone that I will make the work that is going to change the world; but maybe  if you all put it in a heap you could try to throw it at someone. Try making a lasso with cables, for starters. You could try to catch a sheep and start a flock. Some Italian guys are trying to take the installation  material from Venice to Kobane to rebuild the Women\u2019s House there; I think that\u2019s a really good example  of how the trash form of something can be infinitely more complex and interesting than the intact and  seemingly new object, and how things can be recycled as something completely different. It\u2019s the works\u2019 next level, and someone else is creating it. Not me. There will also be other people recycling the  work on parallel levels, for example for its impending online release. I am very happy about that, but I  am not in charge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen: <\/strong>So, would you just say it\u2019s one of the points where you back your case for Marxism in a way that you don\u2019t hold your films to a kind of responsibility to change the world?  Could you say more about your attitude towards the \u201czombie\u201d or historical Marxist breed of thinking?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>On Wikipedia there is lots of advice on how to deal with zombies: \u201cTo kill a Zed, take out your (preferably bladed) melee weapon, raise your fists (Spacebar) and enter into the first-person view (Enter).\u201d Of course, things get more challenging if you are the zombie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong>\u00a0We have a super excess of images, and at the same time have to repeat these images. It seems a strange situation we\u2019ve put ourselves into; what are your strategies for dealing with this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c \u300a \u592a\u9633\u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5f55\u50cf\u5267 \u7167\uff0c2015 \/ Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, video still, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>With what? Having to repeat images?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen: <\/strong>It\u2019s not that new.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s not even about novelty; it\u2019s not that things have to be shiny and fresh, that\u2019s not the point. Please, if you want something new, go to the mall. They will answer all your questions and point you to the  correct product. I have a feeling you are talking to the wrong person, basically, all the time. I am not that super macho pouncing about and telling you he has all the answers and showing his teeth to intimidated grad students. You have to find such a person. He will give you all the answers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> And we are in a situation wherein they are all asking \u201cnow what?\u201d but there are no answers, apparently.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>Yes, but I think there are lots of different people working all over the place to invent things from all sorts of different angles. In the countryside people are trying to basically live together. It sounds like nothing, but it is everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> It\u2019s just the beginning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen:\u00a0<\/strong>There\u2019s a sort of CNN format of adjusting to that newness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c\u300a\u592a\u9633 \u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5c55\u89c8\u73b0 \u573a\uff0c2015 \/ Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, installation view, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>Yes, of course.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zian Chen: <\/strong>And the other way is about a kind of connective sense of location to the future\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>I love how you are answering your own questions because, really, it seems someone has to do it. Okay, let\u2019s just drop this notion of the new\u2014I think it\u2019s kind of misleading. I was criticizing the fixation  and its genealogy and origin. The idea was that you\u2019re not defined by the past, but by what Hannah Arendt called \u201cnatality.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> Quotation is also a trap, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>20 POINTS FOR YOU, AGAIN!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I still feel very close to Benjamin\u2019s way of writing columns; for now, it\u2019s fine. [All laugh] It\u2019s not useless\u2014 absolutely not. It\u2019s a perspective of observation. I still feel close to someone walking through the streets and observing. Let\u2019s talk about some robots now, finally. [Laughs]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You see, Benjamin is often at his best when he\u2019s being mistranslated. For example, there is an interesting mistranslation in one English edition wherein Benjamin is apparently talking about the fascist way of processing data. But the point is, Benjamin never wrote about data, he wrote about factual events. But it\u2019s interesting because if you follow the mistranslation, it\u2019s much more productive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c \u300a \u592a\u9633\u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5f55\u50cf\u5267 \u7167\uff0c2015 \/ Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, video still, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> Is this where your \u201cwreckage\u201d thinking comes from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl: <\/strong>It would probably be much more productive if we go on mistranslating him in every language\u2026.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Chris Moore:<\/strong> Maybe that\u2019s a way out of the system\u2014the glitches and the errors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hito Steyerl:\u00a0<\/strong>No, there is one universe\u2014or maybe there are several parallel universes; let\u2019s discuss it on the level of physics, then. I mean, seriously, not just pretending. Pretend I\u2019m not there, right? [Laughs] I know this is the being outside the system. I know, too, I do not belong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u9ed1\u7279\u00b7\u53f2\u5fb7\u8036\u5c14\uff0c\u300a\u592a\u9633\u5de5\u5382\u300b\uff0c\u5c55\u89c8\u73b0\u573a\uff0c2015. Hito Steyerl, \u201cFactory of the Sun\u201d, installation view, 2015<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

by Zian Chen \u9648\u73ba\u5b89translated by Chen Yufen … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":1999,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[17],"tags":[854,853,35,29,851,419,210,460,230,421],"yoast_head":"\nHito Steyerl: interview - \u71c3\u70b9 Ran Dian<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"zh_TW\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Hito Steyerl: interview - \u71c3\u70b9 Ran Dian\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"by Zian Chen \u9648\u73ba\u5b89translated by Chen Yufen … Continue reading →\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"\u71c3\u70b9 Ran Dian\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2016-06-06T14:05:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2022-12-01T14:05:52+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/randian-art.s3.ap-east-1.amazonaws.com\/2022\/12\/Hito_Steyerl_FactoryOfTheSun_6.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1920\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"1080\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Christopher Moore\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Christopher Moore\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"\u9810\u4f30\u95b1\u8b80\u6642\u9593\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"10 \u5206\u9418\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Christopher Moore\",\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/#\/schema\/person\/21b1847a0437023bf9ee1aec41477222\"},\"headline\":\"Hito Steyerl: interview\",\"datePublished\":\"2016-06-06T14:05:00+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2022-12-01T14:05:52+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\"},\"wordCount\":1941,\"commentCount\":0,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/#organization\"},\"keywords\":[\"German Pavilion Venice\",\"Hito Steyerl\",\"interview\",\"Ran Dian\",\"Zian Chen\",\"\u6b63\u5728\u5e03\u5c55\",\"\u71c3\u70b9\",\"\u827a\u672f+\",\"\u827a\u672f\u5bb6\",\"\u827a\u672f\u753b\u5eca\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Features\"],\"inLanguage\":\"zh-TW\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\",\"url\":\"http:\/\/www.randian.art\/hito-steyerl-interview\/\",\"name\":\"Hito Steyerl: interview - 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