Mark Spiegler<\/strong>: The Eastern and the Western markets?<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Europe vs America vs Asia. Buyers and galleries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: I think in all of these places, you have emerging collectors. Obviously in emerging markets you have a greater percentage of emerging collectors. Regardless of the galleries you are talking about, the fair has a validating function: a gallery in the Art Basel fair has gone through a stringent selection process, having been chosen by a jury of their peers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Obviously in Asia, the challenge is different from Europe or America because the gallery system is relatively new here, and the auction system is so well established\u2014but even here we\u2019ve seen a lot of progress. When I think about the first time I came to Shanghai, which was in 2006, before I even worked for Art Basel, in comparison with today, I think today\u2019s Chinese artists are much more likely to have a long-term relationship with galleries. <\/strong>What I also hear from galleries is that they feel a lot of collectors who used to work only with auction houses are gravitating towards working with galleries. I think they\u2019ve understood it gives them a different kind of access; they can have a different kind of education, learning, knowledge, relationship.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think this is a market that was<\/em> defined by the auction houses, and hopefully won\u2019t be only defined by auction houses in the future. I think if you see the strength of our show, you can see that we bring together a number of artworks and a number of collectors that no auction house does. In a sense, what we want to do for our galleries is what the auction houses do for their consigners, which is to produce the largest possible market\u2014the difference is that what we\u2019re trying to do is create long-term sustainable markets for the galleries and their programs, which feeds not only the hottest artists and their programs, but also the more experimental ones or the ones who are more of a \u201cslow burn\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Is this about greater integration?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: It is! I use the \u201cbridge\u201d mechanism. On one hand, the big bridge we are building is between East and West. It\u2019s about Western collectors discovering Asian artists and Asian collectors discovering Western artists. But it\u2019s also<\/em>\u2014in such a heterogeneous scene, which I\u2019ll let Adeline talk about in detail\u2014it\u2019s also about building bridges within Asia, which is why we wanted someone as our Asian Director who understood the complexity of the Asian scene.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Adeline Ooi<\/strong>: I think nowadays, if anything, it\u2019s obvious that collectors know no geographical boundaries anymore. Traditionally, we could say Chinese only bought Chinese art, but I think it\u2019s clear this is not happening anymore. I think the same thing could be applied to most of the Asian markets\u2014in the sense that yes, there is a sense of loyalty and nationalism, but you just buy what you\u2019re interested in, and what you can afford.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think [galleries] are beginning to understand that programming is very important. They are becoming a lot more discerning about which gallery they work with, and why they should work with this gallery\u2014and this all depends on which other artists they [the galleries] represent, and what kind of shows they are interested in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: I think one of the things that\u2019s very interesting about art fairs is that the extent to which they not only serve as the connecting mechanism between galleries and collectors from different parts of the world, but also between galleries <\/em>from different parts of the world. It\u2019s so common [to see] that, if you really examine an artist\u2019s career, the step that took them outside of their continent or to a new country was their gallery being next to or across the aisle from a similar gallery, but from a completely different part of the world, and saying, \u201cHey, tell me about this artist?\u201d or they may see them there and they meet. It\u2019s this very cool thing. And again, as Adeline was saying \u2014collectors knowing no boundaries\u2014I think artists know no boundaries too. There are many examples of people who don\u2019t even have a gallery in their home country, but who are represented in three or four different continents.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AO<\/strong>: It\u2019s so true. I can give you a very specific example about collaboration. It\u2019s a very heart-warming story in my eyes. Through the Hong Kong fair and eventually Art Basel, Silverlens Gallery from the Philippines got to know the other galleries that regularly show. It started from \u201cI buy one piece of art from you\u201d and all that, and eventually you find that they are working with these galleries, collaborating. So Silverlens is collaborating with Gallery Exit, with SCAI the Bathhouse, and also with another guy in Indonesia. So now you are doing these exchange programs: \u201cI will send the best of my program to you, and you send your best to me.\u201d That\u2019s a really, really great example of camaraderie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: It\u2019s a very good example\u2014among many\u2014of something happening even within this region, which is immense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AO<\/strong>: Back in the day, in 2007 or 2008, no one believed in sharing, but now I think it\u2019s great that galleries understand that we can work together to expand our audience base\u2014that there is enough pie to go around.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: So in the two years of Art Basel Hong Kong started, what kind of relationship are we seeing between Art Basel proper, the mothership in Switzerland, and Art Basel Hong Kong? Are we going to see more Asian galleries in Basel proper?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: We are! I think that at every level, it\u2019s not just the West coming East, but the East going West. We have the Asian galleries\u2014not just at Basel but also at Miami. For instance, Take Ninagawa was in Miami for the first time this year; Beijing Commune was in Miami for the first time this year; Hanart was in Basel in June; Aye Gallery was in Basel this June. We\u2019re going to see more and more of that. Part of that is Asian galleries raising their game, and part of it is the selection committees of these fairs getting to know these galleries and artists better.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Without going into detail, I\u2019ve been witness to some surprisingly detailed discussions about Asian artists with no Asian committee member in the room\u2014people saying, \u201cYes, I saw this show and I saw that show, and no, this artist is better than that artist.\u201d They\u2019re learning. The thing about gallerists is that they are all voraciously curious about artists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I remember when Franco Noero came to Basel in Hong Kong in 2012\u2014as a visitor\u2014and his eyes were ablaze. He said, \u201cThere was that \u2018whoa\u2019 at that purple carpet\u201d\u2014it wasn\u2019t \u201cInsights\u201d yet but \u201cAsia One\u201d\u2014and he said, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I like this art or not, but I know <\/em>it\u2019s something new.\u201d I think this is what is so exciting to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So, long story short: as a result of this knowledge or this bridge, we are seeing more Asian artists. Xu Zhen, for example, had one of the signature works in \u201c14 Rooms\u201d and in \u201cArt Unlimited\u201d this year, and Haegue Yang had that huge piece at the entrance. I think people know these artists\u2014they don\u2019t think of them just as Asian artists, but as great artists. I think, likewise, the Asian galleries have as good a chance of getting into Basel as any Latin American gallery has of getting into Basel. That\u2019s just going to increase over time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: So are there greater strategic goals for Art Basel? Are you trying to be the main fair in different parts of the world? Are you trying to integrate the best of all worlds everywhere?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: Miami covers two continents; Basel covers Europe; Hong Kong covers Asia\u2014but I think it goes beyond that. For example, you start to see us in the last year making inroads into education with the HKU SPACE Centre [an executive program on collecting art], into crowd funding with that Kickstarter project and working with young collectors with the Next program<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think Adeline joins us at a very interesting moment. We\u2019re in a \u201cThird Wave\u201d of Art Basel\u2019s development. The first wave was from 1970 to 1995, roughly. That was a period during which the fair was mostly a sales platform where buyers met sellers. This was the time when Alanna Heiss, who ran PS1, said that if she caught one of her curators at an art fair, she would fire them immediately. And then there was this period until a few years ago where Art Basel\u2014and the other fairs following us\u2014became more than just a sales platform; they really became a week-long event. This was when you see the addition of talks, performances, panels, parallel exhibitions, film programs, theater programs, etc. Also when you see a crowd of people coming, beyond just the buyers and sellers\u2014museum curators and artists who want to get an overview of what\u2019s going on, or biennial curators who want to do a truly global biennial and want to get clues to what\u2019s going on and which galleries to talk to for funding those biennials. Especially in Miami, you see the broader creative class coming\u2014film, music, design, fashion, etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Now in this \u201cthird phase,\u201d I think we\u2019ve moved out of this neutral platform; the sales platform was kind of a neutral position. And then with the event organizers, it\u2019s kind of about the week. But now I think both because of the force we have\u2014because we are present on four continents\u2014and also because of some unsettling developments that we\u2019ve seen within the art world, we feel like we can\u2019t just expect the art world to be<\/em> gallery-centric. We feel that we have to groom great collectors; we have to create great platforms for galleries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: What developments are unsettling for you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: I mean: the encroachment of the auction houses in the primary market; the encroachments of the auction houses into the secondary market at a much earlier stage in an artist\u2019s career; the rapid and often quite destructive speculation around certain artists; the difficulties that some young galleries have faced in maintaining the momentum that they had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Our fundamental belief\u2014and this was part of Art Basel\u2019s DNA from day one\u2014is that Art Basel was a fair that was founded by gallerists. It wasn\u2019t founded by a fair company or a magazine company. It was founded by gallerists. The fact is this: more often than not, the person who takes the first and biggest bet on an artist\u2019s career is the gallery. But in order to do that, the gallery has to be in a position to do so. Art Basel is only as strong as the galleries are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Even something like the Kickstarter project\u2014which is about non-profits\u2014also plays into this, because it is about making sure that these non-commercial spaces are still there, because these are the great testing grounds for artists to then become gallery artists\u2014or, it\u2019s a place where the artist does something that galleries can\u2019t or wouldn\u2019t support. This is a very broad thing, but we are in a sense at the beginning of a \u201cthird stage\u201d, where we feel we have<\/em> to have a more proactive role in the art world if we still want galleries to play a strong role for artists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Especially in Asia where the gallery system is pretty new, Art Basel could have an immense role\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: Let me tell you a story, which surprised me. Both in Basel and in Miami, there was always a strict injunction against auction-house-owned galleries being present at the fairs. This was something that has been permitted in Art HK, as a growth fair. We brought it to the committee. We expected the debate within the committee to be: the Europeans saying absolutely not, and the Asians saying you don\u2019t get it, it\u2019s different here. It was totally the reverse: the Europeans were saying, \u201cListen, we\u2019re not going to tell you how you run your continent. If it has to be that way, then we\u2019ll accept it,\u201d and the Asians said, absolutely not; this must be a platform for galleries and not auction houses.It was thus very clear how the gallerists felt about it in Asia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n AO<\/strong>: I think also from the collectors\u2019 standpoint, when we see a gallery having participated in Art Basel in Hong Kong\u2014for collectors, it means these guys are legit and I would rather buy from them. There\u2019s a certain standard and a certain amount of pride. They had to fight shoulder to shoulder with other galleries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: So let me turn to Adeline: how do you see your strategy as the director of Art Basel Hong Kong? What goals would you like to achieve?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AO<\/strong>: In the long run? [Pause<\/em>] A lot. [Laughs<\/em>] Speaking as a fan of the Hong Kong fair and as someone who has also worked for Art Basel in general in the past two years, I really do believe in the quality. I would like that first and foremost to be the one thing we continue to uphold. It doesn\u2019t just mean the quality of the show,but also the kind of exchanges we get from the galleries and the collectors. Marc might have mentioned that this year, with the March date, we\u2019re getting a huge wave of collectors from the West who are coming to Hong Kong for the first time. I\u2019m very keen to see how that is going to develop and I want them to keep coming back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Could you speak of your experiences in Southeast Asia?<\/p>\n\n\n\n AO<\/strong>: My experiences in Southeast Asia have just taught me that there is no \u201cone\u201d Asia. It has made me understand that huge differences are the one thing we all share. It doesn\u2019t mean that once I\u2019ve come in there are going to be more Southeast Asian galleries\u2014you know that\u2019s not going to happen; that depends on the Selections Committee. What I\u2019ve learnt from my experience as a curator, as a writer and as an art adviser has taught me to talk to different groups of people who make up the art scene\u2014to allow me to be able to communicate with them. I know the gallery scene very well\u2014I\u2019ve run a gallery before\u2014and I know how collectors work. I think it\u2019s about that sort of negotiation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: Adeline makes a very good point about being able to speak to and understand the imperative of the different sectors of the art world that make up the fair. Sometimes ideas have just come out of nowhere, but usually the ideas for what has shaped the fair have come out of conversations. I think a big part of the job is to be in constant dialogue with collectors, with curators, with the institutions, with artists. You know, whenever someone complimented me on the fair, I\u2019d say, \u201cThat\u2019s great, but what really helps us are criticisms. So give us your criticisms. Tell us what you think is missing; tell us what you think we can do better.\u201d So often, what starts as criticism then becomes constructive, then becomes an innovation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: For what it\u2019s worth, six or seven years ago, I was where Adeline was now\u2014a new director\u2014and I brought very little novelty in the first year. But within the first five years, we had redesigned the floor plans of both shows; bought a show in Asia; killed two sectors; redefined three sectors; and invented another three sectors. So things will happen\u2014not to mention \u201cIl Tempo del Postino\u201d and \u201c14 Rooms\u201d, the work with Creative Time and the work with Performa\u2026it\u2019s a constant process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The great thing when you have three fairs per year is that, if you have a good idea\u2014Adeline might see something missing in Hong Kong, for example, we\u2019ll say, \u201cHey, that\u2019s going to be something we can work on for Basel\u201d, and by the time it gets to Hong Kong, it\u2019s been completely fine-tuned because it has been through two iterations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: How independent are the decisions at Art Basel Hong Kong from Art Basel proper?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: We firmly recognize that there are many things that are regional and some things which are more universal. The idea is that long-term strategy is set by the Executive Committee, which Adeline is part of\u2014this is made up of the directors. In terms of the day-to-day decisions involving all the aspects of the fair, Adeline could do with the support of the team who\u2019s there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n There was a period where we had a relatively more centralized decision-making structure\u2014that was necessary to make sure that all of the fairs were coherent in the way they needed to be coherent, but now that we\u2019ve established that, we\u2019re moving towards a model which will allow faster and more regional decision-making so that we can react quickly, and have the fairs perfectly attuned to the market they\u2019re in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Are we ever going to see something like \u201cArt Unlimited\u201d in Hong Kong or \u201c14 Rooms\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: It\u2019s a young fair. I would keep in mind that \u201cUnlimited\u201d didn\u2019t come to Basel until its thirtieth year; \u201cUnlimited\u201d is only possible because we control the halls in Basel\u2014we own those halls. It\u2019s unimaginable unless someone gave us a 10 million dollar donation that we would be able to pull off Unlimited in Hong Kong because those halls are just so busy and the rents are so high per day. That\u2019s a three-week process!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is it possible that there will be more public art in Hong Kong? Absolutely. Is it possible that once M+ is open, things could happen there? With all due respect, Carsten Nicolai was one. If you can think of a larger artwork in the history of the art world, then let me know what it is, because I can\u2019t. I mean, has there ever been a 484 meter-high artwork?<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: No, not 484 meters high\u2026.Well, Land Art, but that\u2019s different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: Okay, when you can bring Michael Heizer here, let me know. [Laughs<\/em>]<\/p>\n\n\n\n Obviously, every city is different and Hong Kong, because it\u2019s a cosmopolis [sic<\/em>] and not just a city, and because there isn\u2019t a history of public art\u2014it\u2019s a much more complex thing. We do hope and plan over time to take the fair more and more outside the halls\u2014because it\u2019s important and because it\u2019s expected of us. We\u2019ve started to do that, with the ICC [International Commercial Centre], with the Film program. Give us some time. Also, quite frankly, our experience with the ICC is that in the first year, it was a real negotiation. Now they<\/em> are eager to do it with us. There are other people who control major pieces of real estate in Hong Kong or major venues who want to do something with us. And then there\u2019s the question of who\u2019s going to pay for it. Is it the right project to start with? The more we become interwoven in the fabric of Hong Kong, the more that kind of thing will become possible, but it\u2019s certainly our ambition to do huge projects.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: Is there a special project?<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: Nothing we can talk about now. If it comes, it will come. We were extremely lucky to be able to pull off the ICC in Hong Kong, \u201c14 Rooms\u201d in Basel, and Ryan McNamara in Miami. We were lucky because these kinds of projects a) have to exist or at least be a glimmer in someone\u2019s eyes, and b) you have to figure out the funding, the logistics, all that kind of stuff. It\u2019s not fair to expect us to do something like that in three cities every year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n DH<\/strong>: At a certain point, are there parts of the art markets in Asia that cannot actually be in Art Basel? Due to its own inherent differences? In China, the obvious one would be \u201cNew Ink\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n MS<\/strong>: And yet we have<\/em> people who are working on the borderline of \u201cNew Ink\u201d. [pause<\/em>] I wouldn\u2019t rule anything out entirely. We don\u2019t do Street Art in general, but there are artists like Barren McGee or JR who have been in the Art Basel fairs. We don\u2019t do \u201cNew Ink\u201d per se, but Hanart is doing a lot of work with calligraphy and so on\u2014Johnson\u2019s whole program this year is only<\/em> ink, and that\u2019s what he\u2019s bringing to the Art Basel show in Hong Kong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Will we do ethnographic art? No, as a rule, we don\u2019t ethnographic art. Do we do Outsider Art? Not as a main focus, but we just had Henry Garger, for example, in Miami; and James Castle in Basel a few years ago. We won\u2019t do art that we consider bad. Or we won\u2019t do design art because we firmly believe in separating those markets\u2014because we\u2019re also partial owners of Design Miami. It\u2019s hard to imagine a form that, taken up and appropriated in the right way by an artist, somehow or other, couldn\u2019t be present in our fairs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n People always ask this question, \u201cWhat is art?\u201d I feel it\u2019s a completely useless discussion. What\u2019s interesting is when people ask \u201cWhat is good art?\u201d Good art is something that makes you see the world differently\u2014it could be aesthetically differently, it could be politically differently, it could be conceptually differently. It could redefine your conceptions of love, war, or whatever it is\u2014but the point is, that could take any aesthetic form, so I wouldn\u2019t rule out what form good art could take. But it will<\/em> be art that redefines us when we see it. \u71c3\u70b9<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Thanks to Thomas Eller<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n by Daniel Szehin Ho \u4f55\u601d\u884dtranslated by Lu … Continue reading ![\"\"](\"https:\/\/randian-art.s3.ap-east-1.amazonaws.com\/2022\/12\/zh-hant\/image-1163.png\")
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